UNTIL ALL OF US ARE FREE: Palestine & Black Liberation — with Ijeoma Oluo, Dr. Michelle Taylor, Saul Williams, Angelica Ross & Gabriel Teodros

UNTIL ALL OF US ARE FREE: Palestine & Black Liberation — with Ijeoma Oluo, Dr. Michelle Taylor, Saul Williams, Angelica Ross & Gabriel Teodros

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Welcome back to The Solidarity Index for part two of our Surge Series!

The definition of 'surge' is: a sudden, powerful forward or upward movement, especially by a crowd or by a natural force such as the waves or tide. And that is what we’re trying to create here, by lifting up other radical podcasts we admire – a surge of solidarity as we share communities and build power together. 

To that end, we're honored to invite you to join host Ijeoma Oluo and her four brilliant guests – Dr. Michelle Taylor, Saul Williams, Angelica Ross and Gabriel Teodros – for a powerful episode of her podcast Until All Of Us Are Free, in which they deep dive into Black-Palestinian solidarity, and explore how we hold on to the truth of our shared humanity.

Their calls to concrete action are rooted in a solidarity of connection, and the stories they share illuminate a life-saving love that has persisted across generations.

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You can find more about this episode’s freedom fighters at these links:

Dr. Michelle Taylor: website | Instagram | YouTube | YouTube

Saul Williams: website | Instagram

Angelica Ross: website | Instagram | Podcast

Gabriel Teodros: website | Instagram | Bandcamp | Substack

You can find more about the podcast on Instagram or YouTube, and more about Ijeoma Olua’s work – including Behind the Book and

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TheSolidarityIndex.com

Tune in to THE SOLIDARITY INDEX on your favorite podcast platform, keep up with us on Instagram, and sign up for The Solidarity Index newsletter to receive new episodes direct to your inbox.

CREDITS
THE SOLIDARITY INDEX podcast is produced by State of Mind Media
Hosted by Zahyr Lauren aka The Artist L.Haz
Created and produced by Jen Bell, Shalva Wise, Stina Hamlin, and Zahyr Lauren Audio editing and production by Stina Hamlin
Audio mix by Matt Gundy and Raquel Saldivar
Logo and identity design by Marwan Kaabour
Art direction, website and additional design by Jen Bell

THEME SONG
Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou
Released on Common Groove (2023)
All proceeds from download/streaming go to the Dr. Maya Angelou Foundation...

Transcript

UNTIL ALL OF US ARE FREE: Palestine & Black Liberation — with Ijeoma Oluo, Dr. Michelle Taylor, Saul Williams, Angelica Ross & Gabriel Teodros

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[00:00:04] IJEOMA: Black liberation is central to my work. It is where I live, and it is in black liberation that I've decided to center this work as well. And so we begin this project with the subject that inspired it Palestine.

[00:00:36] MAYA ANGELOU (Solidarity Index theme song): The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody is free. No one of us can be free until everybody is free. Free, free.

[00:00:52] ZAHYR: Welcome back to The Solidarity Index. I'm your host, Zahyr Lauren, aka The Artist L. Haz. This episode is part two of our surge series, a podcast-to-podcast act of solidarity. The definition of surge is simple: a sudden, powerful forward or upward movement, especially by a crowd or by a natural force such as the waves or tide. And that's really what we're trying to create here by uplifting other radical podcasts we admire. Right now, we're locked in with everything Ijeoma Oluo shares with us on her podcast Until All Of Us Are Free. I always say solidarity is born of truth that informs love, and love that informs action. What is the root, the truth of Black and Palestinian solidarity? How do we navigate being pitted against each other as peoples, and hold on to the truth of our shared humanity? Ijeoma and her guests explore all that in this episode. They truly help us root in our connections, see the love that has persisted through generations, and identify the actions we can take in solidarity with each other.

[00:02:13] IJEOMA: Welcome to Until All Of Us Are Free, a year long multimedia education project dedicated to Black liberation as collective liberation. I'm Ijeoma Oluo, your host and creator of this project. Each month we look at different social political issues in the US and around the world and talk about how these issues impact Black America and how a collective liberation approach to these issues can free us all. Along with this podcast, there are articles and essays, videos, and a lot of other resources available, including extensive episode notes for topics discussed here that you may want to learn more about. So be sure to check out until we are free for everything we have made available. We're starting with Palestine because for me, this whole series starts with Palestine. I have been aware of and supportive of the Palestinian struggle for liberation for many years. For me, this issue is personal, professional and political. I have Palestinian friends and family. I am a scholar of American politics and history, and I am a writer and movement worker dedicated to abolition and liberation. And I'm a black woman living in the United States. All of this not only makes me empathetic to Palestinians and to the Palestinian cause, it also makes clear to me how important Palestinian liberation is to black liberation.

[00:03:46] IJEOMA: For over a year now, we've watched a live streamed genocide in Palestine as Israeli forces have used US bombs and money to massacre the Palestinian people and destroy Palestinian land. For many black people who know what it feels like to be oppressed, dehumanized and targeted for violence by the US government, there is a natural affinity to the Palestinian cause. And for the better part of a year, many black Americans have stood with Palestinians. But some of that has shifted in the most recent US presidential election. Pre-existing tensions around anti-Blackness were exploited, as well as tensions around anti-Arab sentiment. Black trauma was exploited. Black people were made to feel like Palestinian liberation was a threat to black safety. And while many in our community have continued to stand with Palestine, it has been alarming to see how many Black Americans were so easily pulled away from the Palestinian cause, even to the point of hostility against it. As I looked over the past year for lessons learned, I saw that yes, empathy is important in political solidarity, but the moment we feel threatened, empathy with others can go out the window. It's hard to be empathetic in a state of emergency and even harder to be strategic. I was alarmed not only because of the immense ethical and moral failure of not being able to prioritize stopping genocide, but because the continued oppression and genocide of the Palestinian people actually makes Black Americans more unsafe in tangible, measurable ways.

[00:05:37] IJEOMA: This underlined an important lesson for me. Many of us engaged in black liberation work don't really understand collective liberation, and many of us who do haven't prioritized it or made a strong case for it in our work. Now, it's not just black people who struggle with collective liberation. Divide and conquer is such a powerful tactic because so few of us of any race or ethnicity, have built strong foundations of collective liberation into our liberation work. But black liberation is central to my work. It is where I live, and it is in black liberation that I've decided to center this work as well. And so we begin this project with the subject that inspired it Palestine. For this month's focus on Palestine and Black Liberation, I spoke with four people whose work I greatly admire, both in black liberation and its connection to the liberation of Palestine. Doctor Michelle Taylor, also known as Feminista Jones, is an educator, author, speaker, and longtime movement worker. Her work on race, gender, and black sexuality has informed and inspired many, myself included.

[00:06:55] MICHELLE: I'm always trying to understand, especially when it comes to a colonized people and oppressed people who are living in occupied state. Right? Um, as a black person, as an African American woman, I know I've grown up in a, you know, colonial state. I've grown up on occupied land. I've grown up witnessing the long standing, um, effects and impact of oppression and colonization on a people that has been deemed subhuman. Right? Immediately I was just like, oh my gosh, speak up, because this is going to get ugly. This is going to get ugly.

[00:07:33] IJEOMA: Saul Williams is a musician, poet, writer, filmmaker, and so much more. His art heals, challenges, indicts and activates.

[00:07:43] SAUL: I've been to Palestine, you know, I've seen the apartheid firsthand. And it's exactly that. Like one of my first Questions. You know, on a freeway was like, what does that sign mean on the freeway? Entering the freeway, it meant Jewish only. And seeing the differences in in life between what Israelis experience and Palestinians experience. I've spent time in South Africa, and of course, growing up in the 80s, that was also a huge part of our life, was being in tune with what was happening in South Africa and this interconnectedness of of struggles. You know, we were more than inspired. We we learned from each other's struggles, right? It's like when the people from Palestine send messages to the people in Ferguson and say, this is how you deal with the tear gas, the work that we put in for justice as a people, as disenfranchised people, um, Stands and works towards justice and liberation for other disenfranchised groups. And having an awareness of that allows one to connect dots and come to a greater understanding of many things, right? I mean, in the simplest terms, I'd say we are not free until all of us are free.

[00:09:14] IJEOMA: Angelica Ross is an actor, activist, businesswoman, and computer programmer. She is known for her roles in shows like Pose and American Horror Story, and also for her activism for trans rights and racial equity.

[00:09:28] ANGELICA: What really shifted my gaze hugely was when Patrisse Cullors wrote, when they call you a terrorist, when I understood again how as even as black folks in this country, you know, we are seen as a threat and as violent even in our despair. And then to hear Here. Netanyahu say they're all children of darkness. It just took me back to being raised in this racist Wisconsin and them all telling us that we all steal. When I went to Woolworths, the white lady telling me at the store, you all still get out of my store, you know, and just being judged in this group. And so it just all of a sudden became very clear to me. And then when I started to be educated by Palestinians and hearing their story, hearing about the Nakba, you know, it brought new meaning to, I don't negotiate with terrorists.

[00:10:25] IJEOMA: Right.

[00:10:27] ANGELICA: Because I now know who the terrorist is.

[00:10:29] IJEOMA: Gabriel Teodros is a rapper, producer, writer and movement worker. For over two decades, he has used hip hop to connect people in the struggle for liberation. And I'm proud to call him my spouse.

[00:10:41] GABRIEL: When I think of Palestine, I think of people. People that I love based here and their families in Palestine. Um, I think about a people who through our entire lives have had to live and find ways to exist behind a wall, you know, under an apartheid state. I think of all the stories of people that I know who to go down the street, to walk, to get to work, didn't know if they were going to make it because they had to pass through like ten checkpoints. And, you know, I think of indigenous people, I think of the indigenous struggle here in North America and how it mirrors a lot of what Palestinian people have had to go through for the last 76 years. You know, I think of apartheid in South Africa and how there's echoes of that all through Palestine today. I think about how our siblings, our people in Palestine are some of the people that we are the most allied with naturally as black people here in the United States, because the US and Israel are absolutely a two headed monster. It's a two headed beast.

[00:11:58] IJEOMA: A few months ago, I was in a long conversation with a friend of mine when she made a confession to me. She is an educator, a worker in black liberation, and I love her and her work. She said to me, Ijeoma, I hate to admit it, but I don't really know much about what's happening in Palestine. She told me that she had tried to talk about what was happening and what she was learning, but was chastised and told to keep her mouth shut. And so she did. But in our conversation, she got up the courage to ask me. Her confession didn't shock me. Most of us grew up in and were educated in systems with a vested interest in making sure that we don't understand what's happening in Palestine. So if you are in the same boat as my friend. I'm going to provide a very, very brief history on Palestine, but I strongly encourage that you check out the resources I've put together at until we are free to get a much more complete history. All right, here we go. Palestine is a land that has been home to many peoples, including Muslim, Jewish, and Christian peoples for millennia. In the late 1800s, the Zionist movement began in Europe with the aim of creating a Jewish homeland in the Middle East.

[00:13:22] IJEOMA: Soon after, European Jews began moving to Palestine, first in small numbers and increasing over the years. After World War One, Palestine came under British rule. In 1917, Britain decided to support a Jewish state in Palestine with the Balfour Declaration, and it's important to note that this declaration was also based in very anti-Semitic and anti-Arab sentiment. The author of the declaration, Arthur Balfour, was a racist and anti-Semite. Some supporters of the creation of Israel believed in anti-Semitic tropes that Jewish people controlled the world, and giving them this land would help them accomplish their political goals in World War One. Others believed that European Jews could not be assimilated into British society. As tensions rose between Jewish settlers and the Palestinians who already lived in Palestine, Britain decided to give up its oversight of the Zionist project to the UN. In 1947, the UN split Palestine into two states, Israel and Palestine, and it's important to know that this was done without the consent of the Palestinians who already lived there. Israel declared independence shortly after and immediately began violently forcing Palestinians off their land. This violent displacement of over 750,000 Palestinians is known as Al-nakba, or the catastrophe. Over the following decades, Israel would use the Palestinian and Arab resistance to the theft of this land to grab even more land and take more control over the daily lives of the Palestinians who remained.

[00:15:08] IJEOMA: This eventually led to Israel occupying the vast majority of Palestinian land and pushing Palestinians into two very small territories, the West Bank and Gaza. Still not satisfied, the Israeli state has continued to illegally settle in what little land Palestinians have left, and have used resistance to these settlements to control, oppress and imprison Palestinians. Israel controls all of Palestinian daily life. They control Palestinian infrastructure, water, travel, food and more. All Palestinian resistance, even peaceful protest, has been met with violence. And every year thousands of Palestinians have been killed, injured or imprisoned for standing up to Israeli violence. Control over Palestinian life has been especially violent in Gaza. Known by many for years as the world's largest open air prison, the Gaza Strip is only 25 miles long and seven miles wide, and on that small strip of land, over 2 million people have been trapped, surrounded by armed walls and unable to travel in and out of Gaza or get goods in and out without Israeli permission. On October 7th, 2023, Hamas fighters launched operation Al-Aqsa flood, breaking through the walls imprisoning Gaza. According to Israeli sources, 1139 civilians and Israeli military personnel were killed in the operation's attacks and about 240 people were taken hostage. In response, Israel declared war on Hamas and used that declaration of war to begin a genocidal campaign of violence against the Palestinian people.

[00:16:57] IJEOMA: The vast majority of Gaza has been flattened this past year. Death tolls released at the time of this recording are at over 45,000 Palestinians killed and rising every day. But it is widely understood that there are likely hundreds of thousands of Palestinian bodies under the rubble made by Israeli bombs, most of them women and children. Even though each person I'm speaking with in this episode is a black American in solidarity with the Palestinian cause, that doesn't mean that all black Americans stand in solidarity with Palestinians or feel that Palestinians stand in solidarity with them. Black Americans are not a monolith. Some have long felt connected to Palestinian struggle, while others have not. Further, Palestinians are not exempt from anti-Blackness. Nobody is. Even while we acknowledge that some Palestinians are black themselves, and black people aren't exempt from anti-Arab and Anti-palestinian sentiment, these tensions were exploited and even artificially enhanced by oppressive forces during the 2024 US presidential election to not only separate Black Americans and Palestinians, but to pit them against each other. Fear over a possible Trump presidency was exploited, with black people being told not only that a Trump presidency threatened their rights and even their lives, but also that the fight against the genocide of Palestinians and the fight to hold the Biden-Harris administration Accountable for their active support of this genocide was a threat to a Harris win and therefore a threat to black Americans.

[00:18:49] IJEOMA: It was not the Biden-Harris administration's enthusiastic support of genocide that was painted as a threat to Harris's victory, but instead it was the Anti-genocide movement itself that was deemed a threat. And because of that, because of the threat that a Harris loss and Trump win represented to many Black Americans, Palestinian Americans and those who supported the Palestinian cause were viewed by some as anti-black for being unable to support a candidate actively funding a genocide of their friends and family members. These viewpoints, when voiced on social media platforms like TikTok, went viral and angry and disappointed. Reactions to these viewpoints from Palestinian Americans also went viral, further increasing tensions. It is no coincidence that even if these social media posts did not represent the majority of opinions of Black Americans or Palestinian Americans, that they would go viral, there is a vested interest in making it seem like we are farther apart than we are. White supremacist capitalist systems have long been able to use divide and conquer tactics to ensure that oppressed groups can't come together to fight systems in power.

[00:20:08] SAUL: I think of the role that that racialized capitalism has played in. You know, I keep reflecting on Doctor Ruth Wilson Gilmore's definition of racism. Her definition of racism is group differentiated vulnerability to premature death.

[00:20:37] IJEOMA: That's pretty solid.

[00:20:41] IJEOMA: Pretty solid.

[00:20:42] SAUL: You know. And, but that group different differentiation is what capitalism plays with. That's what it needs. It pits those groups against each other.

[00:20:52] IJEOMA: At a time when so many of us have marginalized identities, are being targeted by powerful systems. It is more important than ever that we come together.

[00:21:02] SAUL: What Trump, for example, plans to do to the trans community, what he intends to do to, to to immigrants, what he intends to do, you know, to workers, um, with tariffs and all the, you know, all of this stuff should eventually lead us all to understanding that we are in this fight together. And that's exactly what they don't want us to understand. And that's important that we understand that just like we need to understand that all the shit we've seen from Gaza, Palestine, Lebanon we were not meant to see. We have to be clear on that. We were not supposed to see. We are not supposed to see the stuff that we are seeing, the images that we are seeing, the images that people are risking their lives. Over 190 journalists have been killed so far, right? We're not supposed to see it. That's why they're having congressional hearings on banning TikTok, right?

[00:22:08] SAUL: Right. Of trying to control our algorithms on, on on other, you know, social platforms. Why? Because we were not supposed and are not supposed to see this stuff. It doesn't help them with their narrative.

[00:22:22] ANGELICA: I understand on a spiritual sense that we have been beaten down into a space where they did not want none of us responding to any of this. This was supposed to be too complicated. Uh, you know, there's so much fighting on both sides with Palestine, all these different things I don't have. I'm not smart enough to give a response. It makes you. And it makes me so emotional because it fucks with your intelligence, your baseline of intelligence. Because you keep asking yourself, I must be missing something, right? I must, I must be missing something.

[00:22:58] IJEOMA: We have been gaslit repeatedly about Palestine, just as we are gaslit about our own experience as Black Americans. We are told that the oppression we see isn't really oppression, that the violence we see isn't really violence, that the victims we see aren't really victims.

[00:23:16] MICHELLE: We need to remember that these are human beings, right? The Palestinian people are human beings. And if we've so disconnected from our humanity that we can't recognize that, then what are we doing? What fight could we possibly have for black lives here when we're unable to recognize the humanity of people who are being oppressed and exterminated right now. Who are we? And that's what I think about every day. Who would I be if I just turned my head away? If that was us, we'd be screaming, crying for help from anybody in the world who would listen. So how dare we take the stance of it's not my business and it's not my problem? You know what I mean? Like, do people know that the United States was condemned for, like, Jim Crow shit? Like, in international stage? They were just like, what are y'all doing? Like, how how do you treat your people like this? Like, what's wrong with you? You know, like, this is this is not anything that we should be carrying water for.

[00:24:21] IJEOMA: Even with oppressive powers working to exploit divides between Black Americans and Palestinians, Black Americans have a strong history of solidarity with the Palestinian cause going back decades. Hate. Black Americans know oppression and apartheid. We know mass incarceration. We know what it is like to be villainized by the rest of the world, and to be blamed for violence against us. The affinity that many of us feel for Palestine and the Palestinian cause is natural, and has been expressed by black movement workers and liberation thinkers like Angela Davis, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Malcolm X and more. And this solidarity has long gone both ways.

[00:25:04] MICHELLE: I remember, um, kind of most recently, um, thinking of the Black Lives Matter movement or the movement for Black Lives, I should say that. And, uh, there were folks that had gone to Palestine and were meeting with activists over there and building with activists over there, and they were showing so much love for us. And I remember when we did the national Moment of silence, it reached those people in Palestine. Right? And I just I was just like, wow. You know, um, and so there's always been that kind of reciprocal connection. And then I study black activists, and I know that people like Angela Davis and others have always spoken out about this. I know that this, this idea that nobody should be colonized in these ways. It's something that our activists have always held close.

[00:25:54] SAUL: Palestinians themselves have been very clear on what they see in our struggle. Right, right. You look at Rafat and his relationship to Malcolm X, who he was in love with. And then you see something from Ghassan Kanafani or something and you go, oh yeah. Yeah. That that's our people.

[00:26:27] IJEOMA: To learn more about Rafat Ali and Ghassan Kanafani, check out the episode notes at until We are free. Com.

[00:26:34] SAUL: You begin to understand that the people they have called terrorists are the people against their settler, colonial, and imperial project.

[00:26:46] GABRIEL: When I think of Palestine, I think about the US prison system, actually, and I think about how the US and Israel are almost like tied together and being two of the biggest prison nations in the entire world. Um, we talk about Gaza as an open air prison. Another thing we don't talk about is how Israel itself also has the biggest prison in the world. You know, us obviously imprisons more people than anyone in the world. But Israel has the biggest prison. And aside from Palestinians, the people who are imprisoned the most are black. And I know that when I think of Palestine, I think about their freedom, and I think about how their freedom is tied up with ours. We can't get free until Palestine is free. It's astonishing to me the amount of money that gets poured into Israel every year. And an Israeli citizen. What is it? They have free schooling. Free health care. Is it like the amount of benefits that an Israeli citizen gets off of US? Money basically could house all of our homeless people, could end the student debt here like American lives. All American, not just black folks, but like all American lives. Could be better if those funds were reallocated. You know what I mean?

[00:28:06] IJEOMA: Why is the US so invested in Israel? Why do billions of our tax dollars, dollars that could do so much to help Americans in need, go to support Israel's violent occupation of Palestine? Because the US support of Israel is an important part of the US global imperialist project. Having a nuclear power in the middle of a resource rich region that is beholden to the US and must protect the US's interests in the region for its survival, keeps the rest of the region more in line with US interests and helps secure US access to resources. As Joe Biden infamously first said in 1986 and has repeated since. If there were not an Israel, we'd have to create one.

[00:28:53] GABRIEL: When we talk about Palestine, and when we focus so much energy on freeing Palestine from the United States, it's not because we picked a random place on the planet that's going through oppression and genocide. It's because their oppression is completely funded by the United States, the country where we live and we pay taxes and we struggle for our freedom. Like right now, the US and Israel are the two only countries in the world that voted against, uh, freeing Cuba from the blockade. You know what I mean? Like the US and Israel are tied up together on the wrong side of almost everything that's happening in the world right now. You know.

[00:29:35] IJEOMA: Us support of Israel doesn't just help it achieve its imperialist goals abroad. It also helps the US oppress and exploit black people here in the United States for many years now. The United States and Israel have exchanged technology, tactics and training on how to control black, native and Palestinian populations, as well as immigrant populations and refugee populations, Muslim populations, and basically anyone that Israel or the United States powers view as a domestic threat or inconvenience.

[00:30:09] GABRIEL: When we talk about police brutality here in the United States, a lot of times we're talking about police forces who are trained by the the IDF, the Israeli military forces, essentially.

[00:30:22] IJEOMA: Known as the Deadly Exchange. Thousands of US police officers and officials have traveled to Israel to be trained by Israeli occupation forces on how to control, surveil and brutalize us here in the United States. Surveillance tech like ShotSpotter, which is being used to increase police presence in black neighborhoods in the United States, is Israeli tech cop city's massive training centers, being built right now in black cities across the country, are modeled after Israeli cop cities.

[00:30:56] GABRIEL: They're tied up. You know, a lot of the technology that they use in Israel, and it is high tech warfare. Like, I don't know if people understand like we're talking about not just drone warfare, but in the last year we've witnessed an AI powered genocide. You know, Israeli and American tech companies collaborating, tech companies that are based here, where we live in Seattle, Washington, creating the tools to kill these people.

[00:31:27] IJEOMA: While many of the bombs being dropped on Gaza are made in the United States. Much of the technology, technique and weapons of oppression being used against black Americans here are developed in or with Israel.

[00:31:41] SAUL: When you understand the role of US imperialism, when you understand that essentially occupied Palestine is the US's military base, right? And a huge part of their military presence in that region for the sake of resources, right? Then it becomes fairly easy, first of all, to understand it as part of the settler colonial, you know, history in its connection to the US. The branding of terrorism. Right? That word and and who it is used for the first time it is ever used in any official US document. Is is in the branding of of the Palestinians in the. I think it's in the 60s, but it's the first time that word is ever used in any official US document.

[00:32:54] IJEOMA: The first mention of terrorism in a US federal statute, according to the center for Constitutional Rights, was used in 1969, in a statute regarding the restriction of humanitarian aid to Palestinians.

[00:33:08] SAUL: It's an intentional branding, you know, as intentional as calling indigenous people here savages, right? As intentional as as calling those who experience chattel slavery animals. It's an intentional branding.

[00:33:24] MICHELLE: That the language that they were using to talk about Palestinian people. I was like, how are you? I had heard somebody say, there are no children there, you know? And I was like, what do you mean there are no children there? It was just wild to me calling them dogs, calling all these things. I was like, that's what. That's what they did to us, right?

[00:33:44] IJEOMA: They that's what they said about Tamir Rice, you know?

[00:33:47] MICHELLE: Yes. And I'm like. And it's it's just not right. And injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.

[00:33:51] IJEOMA: We've talked a lot about why many of us are in solidarity with Palestinians, but what does that solidarity look like? One of the most important things we've had to do, and one of the most difficult things we've had to do, is bear witness to and bring awareness to the horrific atrocities brought upon the Palestinian people by Israeli forces. These are atrocities that the Israeli and US governments don't want people to see. Many Palestinians are risking their lives and often giving their lives to document them. At the time of this recording, over 150 journalists have been killed by Israeli forces, many directly targeted for their work in documenting this genocide. Black American solidarity with Palestine isn't just about empathy or morality. It isn't just about doing what's right for Palestinians. The truth is, we can't win our battles for liberation alone, and black liberation will never be achieved as long as Palestinians are oppressed and vice versa. Because the oppression of Black Americans is strengthened by the oppression of Palestinians, and the oppression of Palestinians is strengthened by the oppression of Black Americans. While it is vital that we stand together against oppression, there is always a risk to resistance and there will always be some level of loss. Oppressive powers will always try to make the cost of fighting back too high. True effective Active resistance will require us to turn away from comfort and privilege, to turn away from systems that seek to harm us or exploit our privilege to harm others. There is no guaranteed safety and resistance, and the closer we get to liberation, the harder oppressive forces will fight us. The reality of resistance is not one that everybody is ready for. Even though we are being violently discouraged from collective liberation by oppressive systems, we do have the seeds of liberation within us.

[00:35:54] MICHELLE: It's also inherent to who we are culturally right. And so I keep reminding people this, that this rugged individualism is a product of like this European patriarchal value system. Right? That is not been the cultural traditions of African people for thousands of years. Asian people for thousands of years. Indigenous native people for thousands of years. Community is how we have survived. It is all we know. When they come and they colonize us and get us to thinking that it's all we're self-made and we're just individual. No, that is not who we are. And so for me, this reclamation of this idea of community is culturally important to me. It is important to me to kind of live and exist in that, in that culture. This cultural memory is in my DNA. I recall it like it's here. We can't avoid this. And so I'm going to live in that. And anything other than that I know is because of this indoctrination of these Eurocentric ways of being. We are not individuals. We cannot survive alone. We need each other. And that is a fundamental truth of life, right? And so I'm here for that. I'm here for us doing work that helps us restore those bonds and that solidarity and those connections. It helps us root out, like the vestiges of white patriarchal supremacy, so that we can stop looking at each other and pointing fingers at each other. We have to be able to recognize that some people may be too far gone, and we can do our best. Some people may not get there with us. As Brother King said, it might not get there with you. It's okay. But we still have work to do, and it's going to require solidarity. So.

[00:37:32] IJEOMA: Okay. And we can still stand for people we don't wanna fuck with.

[00:37:36] MICHELLE: That's right. You know, I don't have to talk to you. But understand, I'm still fighting for your freedom. Because the reason I'm not talking to you is the reason you need to be liberated.

[00:37:46] GABRIEL: I'm obsessed with finding histories of communities working together. Like, that's. That's one of my, like, joys. Like when I find a new story about, I don't know, like the indigenous community in Seattle and Vancouver, working with the black community in Seattle. Like, that's that's so intoxicating to me. Like that lets me know that there there was a framework that came before us of how to build, like real solidarity that we can build upon. Like we're not creating something new. This is something that always was supposed to happen where all we got and where all we need to quote our friend Maher.

[00:38:22] IJEOMA: And then I think it's important for people to understand, like practically we don't have the numbers on our own. We don't have the numbers in a system that works internationally to oppress. We have to work together.

[00:38:36] SAUL: There is numbers we have is as the global majority. Exactly. Some people call the Global South. But, you know, those are the numbers we have, is that we belong to a group of disenfranchised peoples that have been colonized, subjugated, exploited. This includes working class white people to buy power systems. We have that, and we have to acknowledge that and connect right on those lines. And they're not everyone dreams of being alive for a social revolution. Um, a lot of people would like to think that all the work was done before they were born, so that they don't have to think about that shit, and they don't want to have to consider that maybe it was a half assed job, or that the work was sincere, but that it got co-opted and and that there's more work to do.

[00:39:33] MICHELLE: At the end of the day, like the revolution gonna be what the revolution going to be, and I'm gonna be ready. And I don't know why people think that this is something that they could have sorted out with a vote.

[00:39:43] IJEOMA: Right?

[00:39:44] MICHELLE: We're talking like tens of thousands of people that we know of are gone.

[00:39:51] IJEOMA: Yeah.

[00:39:51] MICHELLE: We're talking about like, an entire community of women who just ended their own lives.

[00:39:59] IJEOMA: Right.

[00:39:59] MICHELLE: And to continue, like, you have to think about these things. There is no compromise. No on that. And even if I have to use the well, what if this was happening to you? Which I could say that because that probably will be happening to you soon because you're in the United States. And look at what we've done. Right. Okay. How would you not want help and solidarity from people around the world, especially African Americans? You know, in this country they do not care about us? Does it not benefit us to build solidarity and coalition with people around the world who can identify with what we have been going through.

[00:40:41] SAUL: Right when these things are happening? Your number one question is, do they know? I'm sure they wouldn't let it happen if they knew. They must not know. And then, right, the crushing reality of oh, they do know and they're letting it happen. How do you sit with that? How do you sit with that? It's that that has animated me since last October that I've just been like, repost, repost, repost. I need people to hear these voices because I need them to know that we are sharing it. That we that that we hear them.

[00:41:42] IJEOMA: The fight for collective liberation is not just about empathy and shared sentiment. It's about action, about tangible steps we can take in the fight for our freedom. Many of us have joined, boycott, divest and sanction efforts to put economic pressure on Israel and on entities that support the oppression, occupation and genocide in Palestine. Many of us have joined efforts to pressure police departments to end their deadly exchange programs. Many of us have joined efforts to stop cop cities from being built in the United States. Many of us have fought the use of tech like ShotSpotter in black neighborhoods. Many of us have been fighting anti-protest legislation that threatens all of our right to speech and protest. Many have been helping to fund organizations that support Palestinians impacted by Israeli occupation and violence. Many have been directly funding individuals and families in Gaza targeted by the Israeli government, and millions of us around the country have taken to the streets in protest. There is so much more we are doing and can do. So be sure to check out until we are free for even more ideas and resources.

[00:42:59] MICHELLE: A lot of times people get a lot of energy and they're like, yes, I want to get involved. Let me start this. Let me do this. I recommend that people do research and find out what's already being done right. There are people who, for the last 13 months have been standing on corners every weekend, you know, in solidarity with Palestinian people. There have been people who are organizing in your local communities that you may not even be aware about. Just look it up and see like what's happening. You know, join them. They need people like we always need bodies. We always need things. Um, look at the people who have been talking about this for a long time. What are they connected to? What information have they been sharing that maybe now I can pay attention to and maybe I can get involved, right. Is there a family that people are trying to help? Maybe I can do that, right. Um. Can I amplify this person's story? Can I how can I do that?

[00:43:51] ANGELICA: People, I think, get so overwhelmed with the concept of the work. Mhm. And not realizing the work is right where you are. It's literally right where you are. And so when you walk into a room and into a space, you are part of the work. You're part of the ingredient. You're part of what allows or doesn't allow things to pass. So to me, I believe whether it's homophobia, transphobia, anti-blackness, ableism, xenophobia, whatever it is, there's work to be done right where you are.

[00:44:32] IJEOMA: Many in the United States have been afraid to speak out against the genocide in Palestine. Many are afraid of losing income, social standing and more. These fears are not unfounded. There is always a price to pay for standing up to oppressive systems, and a lot of effort has gone into making sure that we all know that the price of standing with Palestinians is high. The hardest part for me has been losing what I thought were friends and important relationships for standing with Palestine. My solidarity with Palestine has likely cost me book reviews and sales and a sizable amount of my speaking income, and I've been harassed and threatened for my solidarity. I know I am not the primary victim here. Even while I know I'm not alone in being made to pay for my advocacy. Every person I know in the US who has stood with Palestine has been made to pay in one way or another. And black Americans already targeted by racism and anti-blackness have a different risk than many others. But this is a risk that many of us who have long been in the fight for liberation are used to.

[00:45:40] MICHELLE: I remember having a meeting just with my agent, and they were just like, yeah, it's really difficult to book you. And I'm just like, okay, I get it. And, you know, my vocal position and in defense of the Palestinian people and so we're talking tens of thousands of dollars that I have lost just for speaking out. And that was like my was my primary source of income. And so yeah, it's been like hella difficult. But at the end of the day, I'd do it all over again, right? Because I have integrity. And when I leave this, this realm, people will remember that I stood on business. Okay. And this was not. I was not cosplaying. Activism. I'm not a grifter. I'm not any of those things. I really believe that we have to fight, and I'm willing to go down with that fight, you know? And so it's been hard. It's been so hard, especially as a single mom trying to just make it, you know. But at the end of the day, I know I'm doing the right thing. And and that's what matters.

[00:46:39] ANGELICA: Not only did I find my privilege and jobs from Hollywood changes, I was speaking up for Palestine. But my position within the LGBT community. I'm due pride. I'm. I can barely breathe. I'm so booked. But this past year, I was canceled. From everything. I've been doing so many things alone just to keep my my voice in the ring. Because I still feel like you're not taking me out. This is what I risked everything for, was for my voice. So I'm going to use it to the best of my ability. And now you know things are changing and swinging because of people seeing the consistency of my integrity and where I've stayed. But I've been willing to lose it all. And I think that people don't understand how much is to be gained because they're focused on the short term losses.

[00:47:30] GABRIEL: I always think about Grace Lee Boggs when she said that, um, with every victory comes a new set of contradictions. So I think liberation is constant work. It is life work that, um, you always have to be ready to pivot and ready to see new contradictions and ready to see like, okay, we worked on this one issue, but now there's this other group or these other issues that that that need to be addressed. So collective liberation to me, it means being consistently connected and always working towards the goal of liberation.

[00:48:07] MICHELLE: A lot of people have a lot of excuses, and I think at the end of the day, it's because they don't want to do anything. They don't want to leave the comforts of their lives. They don't want to have to put in any real work. Um, guess what? We're going to have to start doing some real work real soon. Okay, the.

[00:48:21] IJEOMA: Longer we wait, the more work we got to do.

[00:48:23] MICHELLE: The more work we gotta do, and the fewer people we have, the harder it is. So the more people join in, the less work. And we have to do as individuals.

[00:48:32] IJEOMA: But this work is more than just struggle. Collective liberation is not just about how we fight, but also about how we live. This work has brought me closer to my best self. It has brought connection and community even as it stripped away false connection and false community. It has helped me live more freely. Every day we focus a lot like we know what we're fighting kind of against. But what are you fighting toward? What are you moving toward?

[00:48:59] SAUL: Love. It's always been. I say that as cliche as it sounds, but it's just true even when I interrogate and I'd be like, get beyond it. Are you sure? Are you sure? And I'd be like, yeah. I realized that it's a passion for wanting to see love emanate from the roughest places. Wanting people to experience the greatness and the beauty of love in this lifetime. To understand what it is and to feel what it is. To be loved, to express it, to connect on and on. And I mean that, you know, interpersonally, personally and also as a society, you know. Um, and I love whatever moments we can steal, whatever moments we can find, um, to commune with our innermost and greatest selves. And, and that brings me also back to, to Palestine. Right. Because, you know, we may share a lot of the hardships, but they don't only share their hardships. Today Bisan shared like food. She was like, oh my God, I haven't tasted this in so long. In the course of a famine. I got this today and it was free. Oh. It's delicious.

[00:50:09] BISAN OWDA: They gave me manakish. It's my breakfast. It's fresh. It's hot in the middle of the famine. Having something you love for free. And even without planning for it. I'm so, so, so lucky. Oh.

[00:50:28] SAUL: They've been mindful to share the most beautiful moments in the midst of rubble, in the midst of hardship, you know. And we we are no different, right? You know, on those plantations, we found time to to, you know, like on that one day off that one afternoon off to share with music to share and singing to sharing food, to sharing community. Um, these things are beautiful. These things are beautiful. It's that that's the generative force, you know, it's that that love is is that power. You know, that's what these motherfuckers are missing!

[00:51:08] IJEOMA: Thank you so much for joining me for this Palestine episode of Until All of Us Are Free, a multimedia project dedicated to black liberation as collective liberation. Please be sure to go to until we are free to check out the collection of resources I've put together around this episode. It's also where you will find future episodes on collective liberation and all of the resources created to go with them. There you can also become a paid subscriber of Until All Of Us Are Free, which will support this work that is currently entirely funded by me. So if you find these resources valuable, I hope that you will consider becoming a subscriber or even a founding member. We are going to be discussing a lot this year issues in the US and around the world, and how they tie in to black liberation. Next month we'll be discussing gender. So be sure to subscribe to stay in the loop. I'm Ijeoma Oluo, your host and creator of this project. This episode was produced by Isobel Khalili. I want to thank Doctor Michelle Taylor, Saul Williams, Angelica Ross and Gabriel Teodros for the generosity of their time and wisdom. Please go to UntilWeAreFree.com to find out how you can follow their important work and support it.

[00:52:24] ZAHYR: Thank you to Ijeoma and her brilliant and insightful panel of freedom fighters. There's always risk to resistance, but true connection, clarity of one's own humanity and purpose, and the ability to maintain integrity are just a few of the rewards. Liberation must be collective. It truly is all of us or none of us.

[00:52:46] MAYA ANGELOU (Solidarity Index theme song): People have to develop courage. In your heart, you have to have courage.

[00:52:53] ZAHYR: The Solidarity Index podcast is a production of State of Mind Media, created and produced by Jen Bell, Shalva Wise, Stina Hamlin, and yours truly, Zahyr Lauren. Audio editing and production by Stina Hamlin. Audio mix by Raquel Saldivar and Matt Gundy. Logo and identity design by Marwan Kaabour. Art direction, website and additional design by Jen Bell. Our theme song, Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts is out everywhere you listen to music. All proceeds from streaming and downloads go to the Doctor Maya Angelou Foundation. All the music selections can be referenced in the show notes. I'm your host, Zahyr Lauren, aka The Artist L. Haz. We appreciate you all for listening. Peace.

[00:53:47] MAYA ANGELOU: The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody is free. No one of us can be free until everybody is free.