The Risk Is My Soul — with Chani Nicholas

Join host Zahyr Lauren – aka The Artist L. Haz – in conversation with activist and astrologer Chani Nicholas about her journey as a Jewish person in solidarity with Palestinian liberation, and the ways astrology can be a tool for contextualizing both the struggle and beauty of our human experience.

Visit our website for full show notes.

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CREDITS
THE SOLIDARITY INDEX podcast is produced by State of Mind Media
Hosted by Zahyr Lauren aka The Artist L.Haz
Created and produced by Jen Bell, Shalva Wise, Stina Hamlin, and Zahyr Lauren Audio editing and production by Stina Hamlin
Audio mix by Matt Gundy and Raquel Saldivar
Logo and identity design by Marwan Kaabour
Art direction, website and additional design by Jen Bell

THEME SONG
Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou
Released on Common Groove (2023)
All proceeds from download/streaming go to the Dr. Maya Angelou Foundation...

Transcript

THE RISK IS MY SOUL — with Chani Nicholas

[WAVES SURGING]

CHANI [00:00:07] The risk is my soul, and my humanity, and my morality, and my relationship to God.

[MUSIC] Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou [00:00:34] The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody is free. No one of us can be free – until everybody is free. 

ZAHYR [00:00:51] Welcome back to The Solidarity Index. This time we talk to activist and astrologer Chani Nicholas about the journey that led to her current work as a Jewish person in support of Palestinian liberation. We don't often get to hear personal stories from our Jewish family members on how they came into solidarity with this struggle. Although no people are a monolith, Chani's story gives us a window into the ethics and perspectives of Jewish folks who are putting it all on the line to speak out against decades of Israeli apartheid and genocide. Join us as Chani shares her solidarity origin story, invites us to engage with orgs at the forefront of the struggle, and explains how astrology is a tool for contextualizing our human struggle, experience, beauty and gifts.

[MUSIC] Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou [00:01:49] The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody is free. No one of us can be free until everybody is free, free, free.

ZAHYR [00:02:04] I'm super excited to be here with you.

CHANI [00:02:06] I'm really excited to be here.

ZAHYR [00:02:08] As you know, this is The Solidarity Index, and considering what's going on with our family members around the world, particularly in Palestine, we're feeling from a lot of folks this kind of energy of defeat and not knowing what to do, not knowing where to go. There's a lot of grief, there's a lot of sadness. But we also feel that people really do want to get involved. People do want to be a part of something. And so what is your sense of action steps? What can people do right now? What does that ripple look like and how can people tap in?

CHANI [00:02:47] Well, I think that always when there's a moment of acute crisis, we need to remember that there have been Activists that have been addressing this issue probably for decades. So I think the most important thing to do is to find the people who have been doing this work that have a track record and that are taking steps, and that they're coming from a really solid place in terms of their critique, in terms of their action steps, and in terms of the ways in which they facilitate public gatherings or, you know, like collective moments. So who's holding space for complexity? Who's holding space for grief and who's taking actions that are actually bursting out or disrupting or causing business as usual? A great amount of difficulty, and there are so many organizations that have been doing this work because unfortunately, we've needed it for the past 75 years in terms of Palestine and Palestinian liberation. This is not new. It's just another acute moment. And it is a particularly concentrated, devastating one. So, you know, organizations like the Palestinian Youth Movement, the Palestinian Feminist Collective, Jewish Voice for Peace, organizations like IfNotNow, they've all been doing this work, and they've been able to meet this moment of acute crisis and of awakening, because as we know, what's happening right now is just an unveiling and a manifestation of the kind of violence and dehumanization that the systems we live within can and will reach eventually if we don't interrupt them. So I think always looking to the leaders and the the movements that have been practicing that have a really solid understanding is is the best thing to do because we don't need to reinvent something that that folks have been really deeply engaged in for a very long time, and then see how you can engage with their work. Like all of us will engage with the work from different places because we have different skill sets, and we also have different resources. And so there's there's no right or wrong way to engage with the movements that have been occurring for so long. But the fact is, is to engage or the point is, is to engage.

ZAHYR [00:05:31] I really appreciate you lifting up that everyone has different skill sets, because there's a way that some of these things can be so intellectualized and steeped in bureaucracy. That can be intimidating for a lot of people. But if you see a rally and you're a baker and you're the one that has baked all the goods for the day, like this is a revolutionary act. Yeah. People can can get in on this stuff in so many different ways that are extremely powerful and helpful for the folks on the ground with feet on the ground. Yeah.

CHANI [00:06:04] So or you can do childcare for somebody who wants to go. Do you know if you don't if you're if that's an accessible to you, if you don't want to do that kind of thing, then like ask how you can help your friends get there. Exactly. It really it really is about our collective contribution.

ZAHYR [00:06:20] Mhm. For collective liberation. Yes, indeed. I'm interested to know how you feel like you've come to this moment where you're so tuned in to this fight and on the side of Palestinian liberation. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got there?

CHANI [00:06:38] I am Jewish. My mom's side of the family is, uh, New York, you know, American Jews. My grandmother was and grandfather were first generation American. I'm Ashkenazi Jewish. So this this collective trauma piece is from my particular aspect of the Jewish diaspora, right? Not all Jews have the same kind of like collective trauma, but mine in particular has been used to subjugate, dominate and create a Jewish supremacist state at the obvious cost of Palestinian life and liberation and and freedom. So I, you know, like many young Jews, I was told to go to Israel when I was really young. I didn't want to go to college at first. And so my grandmother was like, the least you could do was go to Israel, um, and stay on a kibbutz for at least three months. Like, she had like a time limit. She was like – this whole thing. Like there's a tree for – an alien to that land tree planted in my name in Israel. Like there are again, so many American Jews, like my grandmother's generation lived through the Second World War. Not in Europe. My families left Europe because of prior, you know, anti-Semitism and persecution. Et cetera. Et cetera. My grandma was a deeply paranoid American Jew and also felt like Israel was the saving. You know, grace was like the thing. And so Palestine. I had never heard that, you know, at 19. I'm also very old. So I didn't grow up with the internet and there was no, you know, there was no there was no information. You didn't get it. Like we really were the dark Ages.

ZAHYR [00:08:31] Not before that, before Instagram.

CHANI [00:08:36] It's just a very different world. Right. So I went to Israel and I heard all of the Zionist myths about Israel. I knew about Arab life. I didn't know about Palestinian life. It's this weird thing that happens there within, you know, any kind of settler colonial state will start to create others like that. But the myths that I was told didn't add up. It wasn't making sense to me. And to be quite honest, Israel was like the saddest, most devastating country that I traveled to. And I traveled a lot. I grew up in a tiny town in British Columbia, Canada, so I was like one of three Jews in the town. A very white town. You know, I was like the Jew kind of thing. And I stood out and all this stuff. Yeah. And so when I went to Israel, I was like, oh my God, I look like everybody. Oh, everybody screams. It's not just my family. I was like, oh, wow. I've never been in the company of this many Jews before. And again, I don't want to flatten the many, many, many, many, many, many, many different areas of the world that Jews come from and that make up the state of the current state of Israel.

CHANI [00:09:48] Like it's not just Europeans. There are folks from Yemen, there are folks from Iran. There are folks like from all over what we call the Middle East. I was like, wow, this is wild. And I wanted to love it. And then I worked on kibbutz in the South, and I was lucky enough to work on a farm, on a date farm, and hang out with folks that were there. Their family was from Morocco, and I was taught that there was never in their past – there was never a conflict between Arabs and Jews. And so I also had this like kind of deeper experience with this very kind, loving man who was telling me like, this is a new thing, like, this isn't how it worked before. And, you know, ‘before’ was only like one person's lifetime ago. [ZAHYR: Right.] Even though there's been many generations, there's just one person my my mother's age. That's how old Israel is.

CHANI [00:10:45] Anti-semitism is a European problem and colonial project. Naomi Klein does an incredible job of dissecting the shadow kind of doppelganger effect of Nazism within Europe, because Nazism is an exact replica of European settler colonialism, and it was the first time that it was turned in on itself. I don't think I really came into contact with folks that were talking about the Palestinian liberation movement. I mean, I'm sure I read stuff from Angela Davis, and I'm sure that it was kind of in the ethers. I don't remember how it turned for me. I just remember being like, I don't think I ever want to go back there. And then as a Jew, in every Jewish space I've been in, in America, there is this elephant in the room, and everyone, I think, is always kind of like holding their breath to a certain degree. Maybe not Zionists, but certainly anybody who questions Zionism or is what they consider anti-Zionist every time. And, you know, we celebrate in community all these different rituals. There's this always this deep need for community and a feeling of, especially if you're Ashkenazi, a feeling of uprootedness and of dislocation. For me, it's like always looking for that home, for that place where I can be.

CHANI [00:12:18] But then there's always this thing. It's like, how are they going to address Israel? How are they going to address Zionism? And over the course of the last months, I've been so deeply disappointed and so deeply heartened. Right. Like, there's also like Rabbis for Ceasefire. Thank God that I can see rabbis actively taking up space in the world and saying the exact words. I need you to say the words, otherwise I can't pray with you. And so it's always there. It's always there, always there, always there. And when the violence erupts, as it always does, that's when we as a community grapple with some part of it. But this is different. This is, of course, an extended genocide. This is this is so undeniable to me that it's like there's no room for gray. There's none of us have room for gray if we're not addressing this head on every single Shabbat. I don't know what kind of God you pray to. I don't know what kind of minyan we are. I don't know what we're doing here. I don't even know if I answered your question.

ZAHYR [00:13:28] You absolutely answered it. It was a story that I think, you know, folks really need to hear. Part of colonialism and oppression is this idea that There is a monolith of people, right? And so hearing your story as a Jewish person takes you and everyone who is Jewish, wherever they came from, outside of this monolith. For some people who may not know, there's a difference of opinion now. Maybe everyone hasn't seen what Jewish Voice for Peace is doing. Maybe this is the first time they're going to hear somebody Jewish say, this is unequivocally wrong. This is a genocide. For us to have your life story attached to that, I think is so clutch, so critical. So I appreciate you being vulnerable and really just sharing that with all of us. Something that you said, amongst the many things that really struck me was that there is a tree planted in your name.

CHANI [00:14:39] Yeah.

ZAHYR [00:14:40] And that's in what they're calling Israel.

CHANI [00:14:43] Oh, yeah. So the whole thing was that, like, American Jews would be part of the funding. If you haven't watched Israelism, it's an incredible movie in that it simply and plainly lays out the Jewish day school to IDF pipeline.

ZAHYR [00:15:05] Oh, wow.

CHANI [00:15:06] And I mean American Jewish day school. And it all preys on our feeling of not belonging, of our unhealed historical trauma and of our like – Finally, we've got a place. It must sound to people that are not Jewish like – What are you talking about? That there's this very, very toxic mix. I think that that European Ashkenazi Jews that we sit in, the intersection of which is we have white privilege.

ZAHYR [00:15:42] Mhm.

CHANI [00:15:44] And historical trauma.

ZAHYR [00:15:46] Mhm.

CHANI [00:15:47] It's kind of like white women and patriarchy.

ZAHYR [00:15:50] That was the first thing I thought. I wasn't going to say it because you was talking but. Yeah.

CHANI [00:15:56] Right. 

ZAHYR: Right.

CHANI [00:15:57] It's the same thing. Right. And so we have to understand how white supremacy has used us and created us as guardians at the gate of things and how how we perpetuate so much violence, even though fill in the blank happens right within these systems, even though anti-Semitism is alive and well. Of course it is. But the the, the the absolute like, uh, use from the right to use things that are not anti-Semitic and to call them anti-Semitic is so masterful and evil. [ZAHYR: Right.] All of it creates actual anti-Semitism.

ZAHYR [00:16:47] Masterfully done. Just to quickly say that I'll be saying white delusionism, because for me I just can't put white next to the Supremes. The Supremes is Diana Ross [CHANI: Love it.] etcetera for me.

ZAHYR [00:17:01] So for me, white delusion ism in this country very much uses that language of wokeness as a substitute for black. It uses criminality as a substitute for black. And so you have folks who are in the position to be oppressors, who get brainwashed by this language, and they hear these things and they jump, they react. And so I feel very close to what you're saying about what's happening with so-called anti-Semitism, when it's not the reality in those situations. And to be clear, like you said, anti-Semitism obviously is a huge problem. Nobody's saying that it's not an issue. Nobody's saying that we shouldn't all gather. But the right.

CHANI [00:17:45] The right makes us say that over and over and over again.

ZAHYR [00:17:48] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

CHANI [00:17:51] Well, I just want to add that part of the thing. And this is like, now I'm really focusing on Jews and I don't know if we want to do that, but we are the problem. So this is it's also like important. But part of the thing is that we have to remember that as American Jews, especially as American Ashkenazi Jews, what we are doing in, in most of our cases is that we are having to go back in inside and disappoint our elders. So we have to separate from our grandparents and our aunties and our uncles, and in a lot of cases, not in every case, but in a lot of cases, we have to be like and some of them are Holocaust survivors. You know, it's just like it's so the psychological work that has to be done is, is urgent. And it's also like it's not just about this kind of like, um, overall overarching systemic thing. It's how the systemic supremacist ideologies plays into our deep and very real and alive family dynamics.

ZAHYR [00:19:13] Yeah, man. That's real. I have a few homies who have, uh, kind of 86, as you're saying, aunties and uncles. They can't go for the holidays anymore because of what you're saying. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's that's real. So I want to hop us to the present now, I feel as though there is some risk in saying free, free Palestine, right? I want to know how you came to the decision to use your social media as a platform to advance Palestinian liberation in the ways that you can. What were the risks that you thought about? Did anybody advise you to do it? Not to do it? What's kind of the ecosystem around that?

CHANI [00:20:01] I'm pretty rogue. Like, I do have a company. Um, but I'm I'm pretty feral. I'm pretty hard to manage.

ZAHYR [00:20:11] Can’t be tamed, huh?

CHANI [00:20:12] Well, for – not, it's not always a good thing. I have never been interested in anything else. I've never been interested in talking about astrology that blocks out the current state of the world. Now, of course, you can't encompass everything because the world is just absolute tragedy. Most of the time if you're looking, you know, across the, the, the board, but when there are moments like this.

ZAHYR [00:20:45] Mhm.

CHANI [00:20:45] It's like what is the point of doing astrology. Astrology being something that can contextualize our human struggle, experience gifts and beauty. What's the point of doing it if we're not addressing the very thing that has broken through the surface and said, it's time. It's time to understand this, to heal this, to reckon with this. That is exactly what astrology tells us. That's – astrology gives us the context for that. So I had to do my own personal work around being Jewish, and at first it was like trying to understand what had happened there, right? So at first I was like, okay, let's read more Palestinian voices. And then it took some days for me to understand how I could start to have this kind of conversation. I don't want to have a business. I don't want to have an app. I don't want to have a whatever if I'm not going to be me.

ZAHYR [00:21:54] Right?

CHANI [00:21:55] I'm just it's not interesting to me. It's not. The risk is my soul and my humanity and my morality and my relationship to God. That is the risk that that is the thing that I risk. If I don't say the thing that's on my heart.

ZAHYR [00:22:15] Say that. That is, um, that really resonates with me. Uh, I come from a professional background as an attorney, as a human rights investigator, and I've been in philanthropy. I've worked in government, we've done whatever the things to to live and to eat, and being an artist and only an artist, the risk is denying myself the opportunity to be fully human, denying my culture, denying our struggle, denying solidarity with people who bleed the same blood. And the risk is so much bigger than money. It's tough though, and the reason I asked the question is because for a lot of folks, especially if you're an artist, you know, this excludes you from a lot of different opportunities. So as an artist who's just starting out, I'm sure there's plenty of people, platforms that are not going to fool with me at all. So does that mean I end up dead in the water somehow? I can never sell anything, make any money. I don't get any. The moment's not going to have me in their museum, the whatever. Whatever the situation. Right. So I think it's important to hear that for you, the risk is beyond somebody taking you off of Instagram. And for me, the risk is well beyond me not sitting at these people's table. It's it's like really deep. It's almost like it's not a choice. It's just not a choice. Like we don't have a choice to be quiet or to not use our platforms. There's something in spirit that is commanding you to do what you're doing right.

CHANI [00:23:56] And when you come from a people that have been been tried to be exterminated, my entire ethos is never again, right? So that is what I've lived and breathed my whole life. So this is that moment. There's no complication for me around that. And because it's my people that are doing it, it is the greatest tragedy.

ZAHYR [00:24:21] Yeah. It's deep, stops you in your tracks.

CHANI [00:24:25] Yeah. And I'm not saying that I didn't say, you know, I've got a company, I got employees. Like, if I, if my stance on this deeply impacts our finances, I'm responsible to almost 40 people on our team. Whoa. You know, it's like we've got a company. So my wife and I, who's my business partner, CEO, she also runs a nonprofit called Freefrom, and she works at the intersection of gender based violence and financial justice. So that's what we talk about all the time. I was like, I gotta, you know, I just have to say this. Are we okay? Like, as business partners. And she was like, it's not even a question, [ZAHYR: Ain’t a question.] do you.

ZAHYR [00:25:08] Yeah.

CHANI [00:25:09] Anybody in the nonprofit industrial complex knows that this issue, this moment has not been great for people who need to be funded by foundations. So what you're saying I don't I also don't want to discredit what you're saying because people need to eat and people need to live. I and my family was willing to take this, if you want to call it a risk. But this was a conscious decision. I was like, I can't put out anything else. Like, I can't be on social media. I can't be in public and not be talking about this. Right. So, you know, I didn't I didn't do the things that the business needs me to do. I'm not going to just talk about the astrology as if we weren't in the middle of funding a genocide, being in a genocide, witnessing it. So then I've had to, like, find a way to. Address it. But I think also the work for anybody, any of us, is like, how do we help each other through this?

ZAHYR [00:26:17] Exactly. That's where solidarity comes in. That's a part of where I get my courage. Is that the network of people globally is so deep that we do care for each other. We do have each other's backs. Right? [CHANI: Yeah, yeah.] And so there's a certain way that you can move into your power and speaking the truth into power that is rooted and feels like it has a backbone.

CHANI [00:26:44] Mhm. Right, right. 

ZAHYR Yeah.

CHANI [00:26:48] And we believe deeply in mutual aid. We from the app's revenue not profits. Revenue. We give 5% directly in cash grants to folks that are surviving intimate partner violence issues. So and 100 they get 100% of that money and it's distributed through Sonya's org Freefrom. And we also have a collaboration with gifted, which is a survivor entrepreneurship based store. And so we do products with them. We do collabs. And so our model, our business model is, is based on the fact that we need each other. And I need you to be thriving.

ZAHYR [00:27:33] Yeah. For sure.

CHANI [00:27:34] I need you to feel safe. I need you to have money for rent and food and take care of your kids. And like, we need each other to be at least on a baseline, safe.

ZAHYR [00:27:48] That's brilliant and amazing. Thank you for sharing that. And the organization is free from.

CHANI [00:27:53] Yeah – FreeFrom.org

ZAHYR [00:28:05] We talked a little bit about platform and social media. Would you mind dialing directly into what have been the positives and negatives of that for you.

CHANI [00:28:18] On the challenging side, especially in the beginning where there wasn't a ton of clarity about kind of what was happening. Yeah, I, I have been accused by my own people of being all the kinds of traitors, and I'm not really Jewish and all the things. Right. So there's that. But, you know, on the internet, you you just have to have a really thick skin. But what has been beautiful is that I've had elders in my community come to me and say, thank you so much for what you're doing. Thank you so much for what you're saying. I don't know if they're having those conversations with other people, and I've just had a lot of people be grateful that the conversation is happening again. It's like it's so bare minimum to do this kind of stuff, especially if you're Jewish. You have to work through like, oh, my family members might disown me or be mad at me or my community, or I might not be able to go back to temple or whatever the thing. Yeah. Then it's like you have to be good with that. But I come from also the situation where I've had to leave a lot of different family dynamics. I've had to, you know, I've been kicked out of certain family formations. I'm actually grateful for the difficult things that happened to me personally, because I've survived them. And I know that I'm I actually have thrived because of it. And so I'm not losing community and losing friends or losing elders or losing my relationship with a rabbi or whatever. It's not that big of a deal to me. It's not not a deal, but it's not a deal breaker for me. So sometimes you have to do that personal work in order to do the work for the collective. And again, it's urgent to do it. And it's a it's okay if you're afraid. You just do it anyways. You'll make it through. But you also need community on. You need to know who you're in solidarity with.

ZAHYR [00:30:25] Right to that point. I believe that you said something along the lines of solidarity is the antidote to supremacy, which we've kind of fleshed out a little bit in the ways people can hold each other as they speak up. Did you want to add anything to that?

CHANI [00:30:40] Social media has created a particular problem in our psyche of being an individual, of being a influencer, of being a star, of being looked at, of being our own object. And I think it's really important to counter that with some good old fashioned organizing, being of use to a community in the way that the community also needs, the way that you can help them, but also the ways in which the community needs not give being a celebrity to whatever degree you know the internet has made you a celebrity. It's really important to not give any value to that. It's like it exacerbates our individualism. A lot of times.

ZAHYR [00:31:32] Yeah, definitely. And it creates a, in my opinion, a faux community, like kind of this fake sense of community sometimes to where you can like the post, but in real life not support it or do any of the work to elevate it. So, you know, it is a, it's a, it's a real thing. Luckily, there are so many brilliant organizing movements happening. Um, BDS I mean, we're seeing people on the ground. We're seeing people chaining themselves to each other at the airport. I mean, uh, I mean, you know, it's it's been really something to be alive during this time and to see how people are coming together.

CHANI [00:32:19] A positive result of social media because, as we know, like pro-Palestinian TikToks are like huge, like it's one of the biggest conversations happening. And so you see you also see like young 20 somethings, so knowledgeable, so understanding of the ways in which this system is a death trap and a pyramid scheme and are not buying any of it. And also for me, again, as a Jew, seeing so many young Jews be like, Hold on, wait a second. And really, really, really encouraging and like kind of poking at each other to say, like, let's do this. Let's, let's have this talk. Let's, let's come to our senses. This is what it looks like.

ZAHYR [00:33:04] Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, people are exposing the ways that the American empire is benefiting and in direct collusion with the genocide happening in Palestine and with issues, justice issues, human rights issues around the world, I think – 

CHANI: It couldn't be clearer, really.

ZAHYR [00:33:22] Really, it couldn't be any clearer. Like, why is South Africa suing South Africa? You can't look at South Africa, the home of global, globally known apartheid, and be like, oh, you know, it's whatever. I mean, this is like huge, right? So many countries are popping in and also filing their suits. I mean, it's a big moment. I want to take us from there though, to, again, you and yours. So I'm wondering for you, what do you want your kid to remember about the way you fought in this moment?

CHANI [00:34:01] I just, I really, I really, really want them to. To know that in this house, in this family that will never hide from the truth. And that internally we will always try our best to unearth it. And externally we will also do that, that we will not be different inside the house than we are outside the house, that we will show up the same everywhere, and that there will be a cost and that we will build our courage up to, you know, incur those costs and that the any debt to our own mental health and wellbeing will only happens when we're not willing to grapple with the truth. Because my wife, since she was 16, she has been working in regards to intimate partner violence and gender based violence. We know intimately that the intimate partner violence. The domestic violence that people experience at home is the very reason why we can't name it collectively, because it's so shamed and it's taught to be a private problem. It's taught to be a family problem, and it's not. It's a communal issue that we have a responsibility to each other as a community to interrupt violence. That happens everywhere, right? And so that's where we're always coming from. It's like, oh, you can see like why we don't interrupt this in the world because no one wants to talk about the fact that that's what happened in their family, or that's what is happening to their best friend right now, or that's what their auntie went through. The. Da da da da da. And it's like we've got so much of these collective stories that we've not been able to bring out to the light and say, that's violence, that's abuse. And when we can't do that personally, we can't do it collectively either. Or it makes it so much harder. And so we know that those things are intimately linked. And so that's what I want our child to know, is that we have to address it both places, and we have to heal it both places, and that all of the stuff that happens out there happens easily, more easily in private.

ZAHYR [00:36:29] Right.

CHANI [00:36:29] And so that's what we we never want to be incongruous with that.

ZAHYR [00:36:37] I wonder as well, you know, that's what you want your kid to kind of understand about you and your partner and what type of world would you like them to grow up and into? What would be the ideal world for them to live in?

CHANI [00:36:56] I mean, I was thinking about this as we were walking home from the park yesterday, and I was like, what about a world where everything stopped any time, any kind of harm happened. We're like, whoa, whoa. No, nothing. Nothing happens from here on out until this community addresses this situation. So-and-so did such and such to so and so. Now as a community, we have to stop and say, no one eats, no one does anything until we I mean, maybe eat, but, you know, like… This is it.

ZAHYR [00:37:37] Right? This is it.

CHANI [00:37:38] This is, this is, this is this is the only important thing is addressing, witnessing, acknowledging harm happened. We need to work as a community towards a solution. And then if that was happening the world over, because it's going to happen, we're going to hurt each other. In the most perfect world, humans are assholes and get hungry. You know, like, we we we make mistakes. We're supposed to, but we need to live within systems that are systems of care and not systems of destruction and extraction. And if I was like, well, what would be the extreme of that? And I think we would stop. There would be no business as usual even in the most minute of circumstance.

ZAHYR [00:38:23] Mhm.

CHANI [00:38:24] And you'd go by, you know, some store and they'd be like, sorry we're closed. We had an incident where we're doing a restorative process right now.

ZAHYR [00:38:31] Taking care of each other. How about that. Mhm. Doesn't it feel good? 

CHANI [00:38:38] You’d be like Okay! Guess I'll go take a nap.

[LAUGHTER]

ZAHYR [00:38:39] Right. Totally. I love that.

CHANI [00:38:41] That was that was it. Like, that was our priority.

ZAHYR [00:38:46] Everyone was cared for. Yeah, that's the bottom line. It makes me think of what the incredible Mariame Kaba talks about. You know, when what we have is so distorted and broken, the focus is always on what we should build. Not necessarily always on repair, but right Imagining into what we could build, what we want. And Doctor Ruha Benjamin talks a lot about imagination also as a gateway to justice, and I think it's so important to really just live into these ideas that make our spirits feel safe, make us feel cared for, give us a safe space to wonder, especially for the little munchkins and the crew. Um, yeah. So thanks for answering that question. Uh, okay. This last one I'm not technically supposed to ask. It got struck. It was struck from the list. Ooh. Okay.

CHANI [00:39:42] Going rogue. Let's go.

ZAHYR [00:39:43] You know, it's not super saucy, but I'm going to ask it because I want to know. Because I love your work. So for you, who do you think? And this could be in whatever context you want it to be. Who are the best fighters as far as astrology? Science? Because I – I want to know, you know, who's who –

CHANI [00:40:07] You said best! You said best.

ZAHYR [00:40:09] Who's the best? Who's out here really getting it? Let us –

CHANI [00:40:11] You know what I'm going to say, though! [ZAHYR: What you going to say?] Each sign each sign has their own gift to bring.

ZAHYR [00:40:17] You was supposed to say Sagittarius is generally –

CHANI [00:40:20] I mean, you're gonna boast the most.

[LAUGHTER]

ZAHYR [00:40:22] Bet.

CHANI [00:40:24] You're going to be the most enthusiastic.

ZAHYR [00:40:26] That's a fact.

CHANI [00:40:28] You're going to be our cheerleader and our crowd rouser and our like, ooh, that looks fun. Let's go follow them. Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, Sag as Tigger kind of feeling.

ZAHYR [00:40:40] Oh I love that, I love that that's totally how I feel. Okay, so that's Sag. And then what are your assessments of the others?

CHANI [00:40:48] Well, all fire signs are really good at getting attention. You want to look at fire. You want to move towards the warmth. You're like, whoa, what's moth to flame kind of vibe? So all the fire signs are really good at illuminating something and making it look like something you want to be part of? Okay, all all the earth sign placements in everyone's chart. Because we all have all these signs in us. But the Earth signs are good about obviously, the practical planning and the scheduling or signs are dry. So they're like, okay, well, this is where we got to cut off. And they're really good for teaching us boundaries and they're really good for teaching us longevity.

ZAHYR [00:41:26] Okay.

CHANI [00:41:27] Fire signs might flame and then maybe go out.

ZAHYR [00:41:31] Flame on their way out!

CHANI [00:41:31] I don't know, like where do they go?

ZAHYR [00:41:36] What I don't know.

[LAUGHTER]

CHANI [00:41:41] And then air signs are of course great at communicating the message. Right. Like if you want to look at the ultimate air sign, sun and moon in Aquarius, it's Angela Davis. If we want to also throw in Toni Morrison as an Aquarius sun, she's Pisces moon. So that imagination and the ability to build worlds and all of that's gorgeous. But and and Audre Lorde, of course. So we've got the oh, wow, holy, holy trinity of Aquarians. Um, but there so there are articulators there. Like, this is the system you live within.

ZAHYR [00:42:22] Mhm.

CHANI [00:42:23] And this is where you're located in it. Let's just give you that big perspective. First and foremost. And this is they're very forward thinking. And this is my vision. And this is you know so always going to be great at articulating and getting the words out so that we can all highlight and citate – citate? Cite!

ZAHYR [00:42:45] Sounds good to me!

CHANI [00:42:47] And then the water signs are of course really good at imbuing everything with feeling. Because if we don't feel something right, we're not really going to be that captivated by it.

ZAHYR [00:42:58] Right. True.

CHANI [00:42:59] Right. So I got to get you where you you feel connected to what I'm saying.

ZAHYR [00:43:08] Mhm.

CHANI [00:43:09] Where you're moved emotionally. Where there's a kind of big like swell of, of feeling but also healing. Right. So the water signs are going to help us to be reflective as well.

ZAHYR [00:43:24] Mhm. Mhm.

CHANI [00:43:25] And to, to want to do that other healing thing. And it's if water connects it's moist. Right. So it like it softens the edges of things and it helps us and it tenderizes us. And it's also about care right. It's about nurturing and hydrating and resting and remembering that that part of ourselves. So we're going to be emotionally moved. Um, by the water. 

ZAHYR [00:43:53] It can be as powerful as a wave and also have all those attributes that you just shared.

CHANI [00:43:58] Yeah, yeah.

ZAHYR [00:43:59] That's amazing. Thank you so much for that. I will wrap us up on this note. One of my mentors, who is an elder in the community and who has housed Rosa Parks, has been in the front of a lot of movements. I was on my way to a march and I got a chance to speak with her, and she told me at the end, and no matter what happened, first of all, she said, wear steel toe boots just in case. Mhm. Then she said at the end make sure you take something with you, a piece of candy so that you can have something sweet on your tongue. Mm. And that's so moved me because in all of this treachery and all of this grief and all of this hardship and death that we're dealing with and going through, essentially, I took it as make sure if you're alive, you take a moment for the sweet. Yeah. Make sure you take a second to regenerate if you can. I just want to appreciate you for going to the depths of that grief and experience and everything that's going on, and also taking us up to what the signs can do. If that's the only if that's the only roadmap they have to get, get into the movement.

CHANI [00:45:15] Whatever it takes!

[LAUGHTER]

ZAHYR [00:45:16] You heard it here first.

CHANI [00:45:17] Um, if astrology can be your gateway drug to liberation, like…

ZAHYR [00:45:21] Exactly. Just, I so appreciate your time and your experience and what you've shared. So thank you so much for being with us.

CHANI [00:45:28] Thanks for having me.

[MUSIC] ACAPELLA SINGING FROM OSCARS 2024 STREET PROTEST [00:45:30] We will walk with you and sing your spirit home. Courage, Palestine. You do not walk alone. We will walk with you and sing your spirit home.

ZAHYR [00:46:09] Thank you, Chani, for sharing your life with us. In a time where the word anti-Semitism is used to cloak the action of genocide and silence voices fighting for Palestinian liberation. It's so powerful to hear how you view this struggle, and why you continue to use your platform to activate community in so many ways, and to speak out against injustice. Thank you so much for joining us.

[MUSIC] Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou [00:46:35] Free free free free. People have to develop courage. In your heart – you have to have courage.

ZAHYR [00:46:50] This podcast is a production of State of Mind Media created and produced by Jen Bell, Shalva Wise, Stina Hamlin and Yours Truly, Zahyr Lauren. Audio editing and production by Stina Hamlin. Audio mix by Raquel Saldivar and Matt Gundy. Logo and identity design by Marwan Kaabour. Art direction, website and additional design by Jen Bell. Our theme song, Until Everybody Is Free, by Bella Cuts, is out everywhere you listen to music. All proceeds from streaming and downloads go to the Doctor Maya Angelou Foundation. All the music selections can be referenced in the show notes. I'm your host, Zahyr Lauren, aka The Artist L. Haz. We appreciate you for listening! Peace.

[MUSIC] Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou [00:47:40] The truth is, no one of us can be free until everyone is free. No one of us can be free until everybody is free.